I'm personally a very neutral person, as well as not knowing much of any situation happening in this scenario (I'm not the most active)!

But I will say, there are always two sides to every story. I personally do believe that the people you have included in this ban are simply upset because they have a voice that is not being heard.

Firstly, I won't even get into economy, I'm too dumb for that lol. Same for the extension.

Secondly, I don't know you personally Krin, hypothetically, you may be a sensitive person. Maybe some of these situations were meant as jokes between people (even if you didn't see it that way). Most of the members here have no way to see the full picture from simple screenshots.

From what I've seen, I do not think you're homophobic, but I believe most of the players assume this due to no action being taken on the members that actually are. I have definitely seen people in the Region Chat being harassed but members, not even just new members, about their identification, their pronouns, etc. and

Again, I hope no offense is taken from this and I am very clear that I am not picking any sides, nor should I feel anyone should expect me to. I am speaking from my own point-of-view and what I have personally experienced in my short time here. It is your site, and you can moderate as you please, but there are some people here who actually want to help. If you have a community that isn't heard, you can only expect them to make something for themselves and bury you in the dirt.

You need to have good moderation and leadership. I've never run a website before, but I have seen similar things happen in different rpgs and even on Discord and it runs people into the ground and causes them to trust no one. You need to have trust to have a good running team. If you don't have that, you cannot be upset when members decide they no longer want a part of the game or they feel it's best to leave the site. I've seen so many people leave due to the stress this site can bring on them, which may mean something.

You have to look through other people's perspectives.

As one of the players involved largely solely in the economy antics and onsite trolling I just wanted to say that my sole intention here was to open a door to proper conversation on all sides that I felt was being stifled and unheard by very heavy misunderstandings and heated vitriol on both sides over the course of several years as I've been following the situation for quite some time on my own accord.
I was not asked by anyone to do this. I am a complete bystander in this so I cannot speak firmly on the intentions of all parties or banned users involved here, so it is all the more important that this discussion be had with complete civility and transparency on the table by those who wish to do so.

So thank you, genuinely, Krin and Fai, for even allowing this discussion to exist. I am very thankful that my words have been taken into consideration and do genuinely wish the absolute best for your site and community going forward. I do truly love Sylestia's community but I have felt frequently unsafe here due to a lack of user protective features and active community moderation efforts on the behalf of the administration that have enabled such widespread harassment, resentment, and malicious actions to fester on and off site. I know I am very much not alone in these concerns.

To those speaking with vitriol and hatred now I do ask you to please mind your words as there are real people behind the screen even if they cannot or are too afraid to speak for themselves at this time due to threat of harassment or due to their existing bans. I do not wish to return to this site in any capacity for many personal reasons so I feel comfortable speaking to some degree anonymously.

I will say while I do loathe the thought of personal information said in confidence of what was intended to be friends being grossly violated like this, I do fully understand the concerns you and Fai had that brought it to the forefront because I've had even my own concerns and had wished in hindsight I had addressed them when they first arose when I still had the capacity to do so, but I felt unsafe doing so at that point in time, and to this day.

I had instead quit the site for over a year and distanced myself far from this server and all involved for the sake of my own mental wellbeing as I did not wish to be involved in any capacity and had felt personally harassed and threatened by several users involved within this server even long after my departure. Several of these users I once considered friends, many now I do not due to their behavior and do not wish to condone any potential illegal activity or further breaches of community guidelines. I do not wish to discuss the details further as they are highly personal and do involve facets of my real life.

While I genuinely personally and believe true physical harm to staff was not intended after seeing both sides and lengthy discussions with involved parties, I do wish to say these jokes can have real and absolute legal concern, as does the illegal unauthorized disclosure and invasion of personal information of users of your website.

While I do not feel I have a true right to criticize any actions taking here considering my own measures taken to create a fair platform of discussion, I do wish better and more secure measures of addressing the situation professionally were taken through both discord's ticket system and moderation itself instead of manipulating the trust that was once in place here for many individuals.

I do not condone any actions taken here and for the public record I would like to state I am a former staff member from the beginnings of this server who stepped down far before it became the present state it is today and thus cannot speak much of present issues, toxicity, or any legality. I will say this was never intended as a Sylestia-based server in any capacity, this is a server that housed much real life personal information of a rather large, interconnected friend circle across many games.

These jokes of swatting and doxxing are not acceptable by any standards and after much thought I do not disagree with administrative actions taken on site here towards those particular individuals who were involved. I also wish for those involved with providing this information to avoid doing so in this matter at the risk of causing further potential real world harm to those who are largely (to my understanding) uninvolved with the actions of a few select users.

As for the economy I do wish to place that into the hands of the players and think whatever suggestions that should be implemented are done so with an open and active discussion with the community.
For those that know who I am, I ask that you do not contact me as I do not feel comfortable discussing this matter further personally and do not wish to and cannot provide any further information on the subject at this time.

Link: https://www.sylestia.com/forums/?thread=105585&page=23#221 Author: LemonSoul Time Posted: 3/25/2023 at 1:59 AM I'm personally a very neutral person, as well as not knowing much of any situation happening in this scenario (I'm not the most active)! But I will say, there are always two sides to every story. I personally do believe that the people you have included in this ban are simply upset because they have a voice that is not being heard. Firstly, I won't even get into economy, I'm too dumb for that lol. Same for the extension. Secondly, I don't know you personally Krin, hypothetically, you may be a sensitive person. Maybe some of these situations were meant as jokes between people (even if you didn't see it that way). Most of the members here have no way to see the full picture from simple screenshots. From what I've seen, I do not think you're homophobic, but I believe most of the players assume this due to no action being taken on the members that actually are. I have definitely seen people in the Region Chat being harassed but members, not even just new members, about their identification, their pronouns, etc. and Again, I hope no offense is taken from this and I am very clear that I am not picking any sides, nor should I feel anyone should expect me to. I am speaking from my own point-of-view and what I have personally experienced in my short time here. It is your site, and you can moderate as you please, but there are some people here who actually want to help. If you have a community that isn't heard, you can only expect them to make something for themselves and bury you in the dirt. You need to have good moderation and leadership. I've never run a website before, but I have seen similar things happen in different rpgs and even on Discord and it runs people into the ground and causes them to trust no one. You need to have trust to have a good running team. If you don't have that, you cannot be upset when members decide they no longer want a part of the game or they feel it's best to leave the site. I've seen so many people leave due to the stress this site can bring on them, which may mean something. You have to look through other people's perspectives.

Telling someone to look at other people's perspectives when they probably have done so much that they are sick of this seems off-base. Also, I don't see this as joking. It is seriously more than two screenshots worth of absolute garbage. The level of entitlement and abusive thinking is disappointing to see. This does not just hurt 1 or 2 people. I am sorry, but that last paragraph is insensitive. Really? How is that neutral? Just comes off as TMI and rude. It is not this forum's responsibility.

They already voiced their opinions in the screenshots; looks relatively straightforward they are bored and have nothing better to do. I am sure there was more to it, and that is nuts.

I feel you are digging a little bit.

Can we play a simple game, be held responsible for our actions, and read agreements we agree to from the start? People may need a refresher. Just own up and be honest. Have some fun, or chill out however you play.

Trying to rationalize something that has already been decided. We all need to be careful with who we interact, but that is with any social web platform that extends to Discord (I avoid Discord).

Oiseau's message really got me thinking about what moving forward from this looks like, so I've ended up writing a long message even though I hadn't planned to say much in this thread.

Link: https://www.sylestia.com/forums/?thread=105585&page=20#198 Author: Oiseau Time Posted: 3/24/2023 at 7:40 PM I understand the worry about losing access to old themes but to me it just seems kinda... wrong. While yes, these players are no longer able to access the pets, many still did spend countless hours getting these themed and special pets. Some even paid actual money for them. To just set those up for others to use for breeding/buy seems wrong. It's similar to the many, many old players who no longer play and have tons of old and rare themes - setting their pets up for others to use wouldn't be the solution. It feels a bit like swooping in to profit off of another's work. I feel like instead hosting a special even to bring back old themed would be better, and not in a "weel of themed" kind of way. Maybe every fest a couple of species could have an older theme reintroduced. This way it's possible for others to collect the theme that is rare to access while still allowing the players to keep what they earned.

This idea has a couple of really good layers to it. Of course banning shouldn't mean the contents of their account gets redistributed, that would only cultivate a culture of players trying to cannibalise each other's accounts.

I understand the economy part of the discussion as really being about disgruntled players thinking the exclusivity of their pets, items, and amassed currency gives them the right and power to take revenge against the game and staff, and influence other players to take their side, rather than stepping away when they stopped having fun here.
By that logic, some degree of lowering exclusivity would not only alleviate concerns that more longer term players like myself may have about something like themed pets being removed permanently from the active player base and the impact on trait pools, but it could also make for a healthier community in the long run.

The details of how something like this could be done would be very important. Making breedable max stat pairs more accessible does have a degree of both devaluing everything non max-stat and being upsetting to people who've done those projects since breeding is unlimited and if fertile max stats were common and cheap they would be sold at a loss by everyone who tries breeding stats themselves after that change. Basically, the stat economy has a fairly horrible need for players to enforce exclusivity on breedable pets and keep prices high so that prices don't permanently drop low enough to make breeding worthless. (Although I want to say the fact that breeding is unlimited is one of the things I do love most about this game and I would never want to see that mechanic targeted too aggressively, whatever 'too aggressively' actually means. I have no ideas for what could make this a more healthy aspect of the game except maybe making it impossible to list max stats for public sale, and I think any changes to address this area need to be very carefully made, with player consultation, and not as a fast knee-jerk reaction to the explosive situation these bans came out of)

On the other hand, selling top-tier crafted equipment at, close to, and sometimes even below cost has no long term negative consequences since there are still limits on supply, and lower prices means its affordable for more players, so while the profit for players crafting may drop prices can go back up. So this is an area where I could imagine someone selling well below standard prices in an active attempt to affect the economy being well meaning. (I know at least one banned player was doing this, likely at least in part maliciously based upon the recurring themes of the discord messages - I don't want to get into the discussion around whether the discord messages should have been made public though)

Themed pets are somewhere in between since purebreds are infinitely reproducible with no cost, but tagged ones not only can't be reproduced infinitely, but cannot be obtained after they are retired outside of the wheel of themed, which is a small window once a year that gives a small number of almost totally random themes from a huge pool for the majority of players, who aren't spending lots of money/diamonds. Retired themes being tied to a diamond event adds to the sense of exclusivity and prestige established players have. Personally, I think the current fortune event is already a great example of mixing retired themes back into circulation to make them accessible to new players, and should be a model moving forward.

As for having a special event to try boosting player goodwill, it feels a little bit like celebrating the removal of the banned players, or like bribery to try and win back player loyalty. That could come off the wrong way and/or drive away players with mixed feeling on the bans.

Anyway, this entire situation must be really tough on all the staff so I hope you're all taking care of yourselves and that players are being respectful even if they disagree with parts or all of the situation and response.

Link: https://www.sylestia.com/forums/?thread=105585&page=20#194 Author: Fireflick Time Posted: 3/24/2023 at 7:15 PM (Hey, Krin! Sorry for the ping, but I just wanted a little clarification. For convenience, I bolded the two points I wanted answers on, so feel free to skip down if you're busy right now) ~~~ First of all, woah. I was in region chat when players began realizing people were missing, and this definitely escalated. Actually, I read this hours ago but couldn't think of a good reply until just now. To start out, I think it's important to recognize the people who spoke out this thread. (like Xavion, Untitled Prince, Krinadon, Faiona, and others I unintentionally passed over) I know it's hard to bring stuff like this up, but it's so much better that you did. Out of all the posts I've read on this thread, those four were the most helpful and eye opening. Thank you for speaking up and being a light on this site. :) ~~~ I definitely agree with @Fleuralilly in saying that: (and I'm not going to quote the entire thing as it's long, and I am only referring to a small portion. If you want to read her full response, you can find it here) "My biggest concern is for what comes after: I think in a day or so when things have calmed, there should be another announcement by admin to clarify what exactly this current mass ban means for players going forward. What do we need to worry about and what can we relax about (trading practices etc). What in the future would count as ban worthy etc. I think this might be best addressed in a new announcement, that way players looking for key information about what to do from here on out aren't needing to scroll through this particular thread." And, to add to this, what Acycorn said: (her full reply here) "From your replies I've gathered that at least some of these players were contacted via PM prior to being banned, so can I assume that this would be your standard procedure? Especially for people worried about things like selling off project rejects and high stat pets for low prices (as I've been doing) it might be a relief to know that we will get a note of warning if we happen to cross a line unintentionally." I've taken the time to read through this thread, and there's definitely a lot of repeated questions and the majority of them are players wondering what exactly is required to be banned, are they at risk of being banned for doing____, etc. Plus, it would set a standard for the future. Future players will know exactly where the line of being banned is, and banned players will be able to have a clear understanding on why they got banned. I wasn't on Sylestia when the first wave of banning occurred, but obviously there is either confusion of what warrents a ban and what doesn't, or players simply don't believe that they will get banned if they break the rules. I myself would really appreciate just that little bit extra clarification in light of current events. ~~~ (mainly a response to players' posts) I wasn't part of the discord in which these discussions took place, so I'm attempting to piece together the story through what I witnessed in Region Chat, this thread, etc. I do agree with other players that some might genuinely have been on that discord, but not really meant anything they said. However, if one thinks about it, there really isn't a good way to let them back unless they never engaged with the thread. (In which case, why join it?) This is harsh, but I don't see anyone who engaged with the banned users being allowed back onto the site. The discord was meant as a place to rant, and that's absolutely understandable and healthy. However, the amount of stuff that went on there clearly made it into a dark place. The majority of the players on that discord probably didn't intend for things to go this way, or even support the actions. However, in agreeing out of fear (assuming they're innocent) and not stopping others actions, they involved themselves. I feel awful in saying that, and I've edited too many times. However, it cannot be said all of the users were innocent. We were provided with proof, and other players have testified to support the story. I believe everyone is good at heart, but Sylestia is a business at the core. Allowing troublesome actions to reoccur isn't healthy for this site, and the admins have to do what's healthy for Sylestia in the end. ~~~ While agreeing that the majority (if not all) of the banned players likely won't, and shouldn't come back to Sylestia (in the least harsh way, see above) I do have to empathize with the breeders on this one. I've probably read every project guide on her for the fun of it (I like statistical stuff, but hate math, oddly enough) and I have a few projects I'm working on right now. Actually, I'm trying to get a themed max pair of every nixi on site. One of the issues I've run into is finding themed nixis with the traits I want. It's hard enough to buy an older theme with all the wrong traits. Especially with the older themes, the players who were banned do possess a lot more of them with traits that can't be found elsewhere. And while these traits will eventually show, it will probably take years for them to come back around. Having stated the following, I agree with Vineyiea in saying: (here) "But that is a good idea, or maybe even just set up the themed pets for breeding? So they can still be used for the gene pool, but the money goes back to the site? It could definitely solve, or at least help, the gene pool and economy issue." and End: (here) "All that being said, I am worried about the economy as we go forward. A lot of the people that were involved were users with years of collecting. With them being gone, as it has been brought up, a lot of high value pets and items are off the breeding/sale market." I know it's petty, but Sylestia is an ever-growing and evolving site. For breeders especially, this is a huge step back. So, maybe breeding could be allowed to these pets, or older themes could [temporarily?] appear more often in the Astryl's Vale zone? (I'm hesitant to just say the Lost Grove, as I know newer players are already feeling being left out of the grove this fest) I guess overall, my question is if players will be allowed access to older themes that the banned players really dominate possession above. (more above!!) ~~~ I want to end complimenting the bright spots of this thread again. I actually glanced through the thread about the first wave of bans, and this one just seems. . . healthier. It might not feel like it with all the stress and arguments going on, but this is incredibly healthy. Players who don't normally speak up are comfortable putting their opinions out there, and some players are brave enough to put their personal experiences out there. While this is definitely a rough patch, some very admirable things are happening. Specifically, I appreciate that there is even an opportunity for discussion on this thread. As previously stated, I was on region chat when players first discovered the missing players. The chaos, rumors, conspiracy theories and other madness going on was not a healthy place to be in. Giving us the right to speak up and ask questions shows that the admins truly care and appreciate our presence. While it may feel normal on this site, Sylestia's the only site I've seen with this mentality and it's truly a different place because of it. Thank you all for the openness, civility, kindness, etc. that you bring to this site. :) ~~~ edit: I quoted players as they stated my ideas better than I could, and branched off of mine. I am doing this to appreciate your words, not condone them. However, if you want me to remove the quote, I would be more than happy to.

I will try to answer your concerns, but apologies if I missed one. Your bolded parts were quite large and didn't see specific questions. =P

Regarding the bans, as I have tried to emphasize throughout this thread, nobody was banned for simply selling something cheap. Nobody will ever be banned for any simple reason like that. We ban extremely rarely (outside of bots, trolls, and multiple accounts). A player has to go through a lot of effort to get banned by us for player conduct. Basically, the most important overlapping factor in pretty much any conduct related ban has always been, "This player is very clearly not playing the game/participating in the community with honest intent." They are either intentionally ruining others' experiences, intentionally causing harm to other players/staff, or intentionally abusing game systems (exploiting to the extreme, excessively botting gameplay, etc). If you are genuinely wanting to play the game and are not intending to cause harm to other players, whether through game mechanics or just quite literally, there's nothing to worry about. I can promise you that we are not going to ban someone simply because they listed some pets at a cheap price. All of this went significantly deeper than just them simply selling some stuff at low prices. This was a group of players who absolutely did not care about the wellbeing of the game and were actively trying to make it worse via subversion.

Regarding the economy, we will be working on various things to address that. At the moment, we are just preoccupied with a thousand things. Faiona and I plan on sitting down and hashing some stuff out and we definitely will be making some changes in order to safeguard the economy better moving forward as well as trying to address any issues with lack of breeding stock. I just can't provide any specifics just yet, we will need a little bit of time to discuss that first.

Link: https://www.sylestia.com/forums/?thread=105585&page=21#206 Author: Encryption Time Posted: 3/24/2023 at 8:30 PM i told myself i won't get involved or care about what people thought of me here any longer, but here i am. if they truly care about transparency it won't get deleted. i have little faith it will stay up i just hope it's on the forum long enough because no one banned can share. there's so much but these are teh two things that the biggest concerns doxxing: none of Krinadon's personal information EVER got shared. idk what screenshots he was shown in this situation when it happened in december, but he hasn't provided them or responded to the banned player's appeal. the person who was banned for doxxing said in the server that they were looking at information about the site and stumbled across personal information. they did not say what it was. they did not say how they found it. they said clearly they absolutely would not share, in the server, in discord dm, or anywhere else. emphasizing this happened in december. had they done anything malicious with the information, they could have. they were still active in the server after their ban and could have shared. Krinadon, if you still have those screenshots, i'd advise you look at them again. i do remember when someone find Fae's ig, because it was public at the time and it was followed by the official sylestia ig account. they did look through, and made unnecesarily negative comments about it. that got shut down by a server mod who told the player not to. nothing further came from that. if more harassment happened, i'm deeply sorry you went through it, but it wasn't associated with my group of friends. 2. swatting: the part that was removed for Krinadon's privacy provides critical context. obviously i'm not going to say exactly what it says. but they have a close irl friend who Krinadon also knows irl, and the now banned player said that "if he seriously hurts my friend, i will show up at his door" yes it's a joke in very bad taste, but again. context makes a big difference. We have removed the screenshots as we feel that there is no more benefit from leaving them up. last thing i want to add is discords were shared because friends had their contact cut from being banned. not to "sway people to their side" beyond this i'm done you can add me to the ban list

I am not going to ban you for voicing your opinion in a civil way. However, ask and you shall receive:

We have removed the screenshots as
we feel that there is no more benefit from leaving them up.


As we have stated, we have thousands of messages. We have not shared the majority of things and I don't think we really need to. But, since this is about me personally and I do not mind sharing it, enjoy.

Link: https://www.sylestia.com/forums/?thread=105585&page=21#207 Author: Jackdawjames Time Posted: 3/24/2023 at 9:00 PM Hey Krin, sorry if this has been asked before, but what will happen to banned users' pets, if anything? I personally would hate to see them all get malnourished and suffer. Will they be released?

Unfortunately, they will remain on their accounts, as is, forever. Under no circumstances, even for bans, would we ever forcibly touch/remove a player's account assets. That's just our policy.

You do know ael only posted a few pieces of primordial cheaper for the mere fact she wanted some new people to be able to access it. This game isn't exactly new user friendly and a lot of the new people are frustrated that everything is locked behind lost grove

Link: https://www.sylestia.com/forums/?thread=105585&page=22#218 Author: BobRoss Time Posted: 3/25/2023 at 1:25 AM I had been sitting down contemplating my return to sylestia with the upcoming Fae revamp when news of what happened broke. To say Im completely impartial to parties would be dishonest. I also dont envy the job of moderation - its truly impossible to please all parties en mass. There are a couple things that I am hoping I can get some clarification on. So Krin Im hoping you can help me out here! 1) The mention of swatting or being doxxed is horrifying - this is one of the more serious allegations. I can empathize with fear of a real threat of this occurring. I can also read the message and understand how folks might interpret this dubiously - a veiled threat. But part of the reality is I also know this individual well and need additional context in that I know this individual to pride themselves on being articulate, proper usage of words, and demonstrating credibility as needed? I can also potentially read this as a Hey - Ive lived someone who understands what this is like on both sides of the fence. What it is or is not. That it can be a serious thing. Take my understanding of these concepts as you will based on that information (an offering of credibility and not bragging rights). I think the latter is worth considering. I know the user had a lot of love for this place - regular suggestions, streams, and talks of a YouTube channel to help promote the site and show strategies for content completion. I also know what her housemate has lived through and they wish to stay as far away from such things as possible. Was this user banned based on the above or in regards to market related activities? 2) Its my understanding your personal details were retrieved in a method I wont discuss. May I ask how you were made aware? If they were shared with additional individuals? And intent? I know the fear of privacy and safety being out of your hands can be alarming. I ask because I want both sides of the story. What Ive heard is someone wanted to notify you about the method to ensure you could protect/privatize your data and requests to share were denied. Id also like to understand more about why the legal follow up was distributed amongst a number of players as opposed to the one who sought the information if there was a perceived threat.

Ignoring the circumstances, it is very nice to see you on the site again, BobRoss. Faiona and I have missed seeing your Themed Pet design entries each contest. I do hope this event won't change your interest in the upcoming Faelora Revamp and beyond.

I will try and answer your concerns as best as I can.

1. The player that you are referring to was banned for a multitude of reasons that overlapped and caused us to eventually decide, yes, they have to go. It was not just what was said in the screenshot and it was not mostly market related. It was a handful of things that made us decide that there was no way for them to remain on Sylestia in light of everything.

2. You can refer to this reply I just made: https://www.sylestia.com/forums/?thread=105585&page=23#226

3. It was definitely not a spoof, no. It was slanderous. We contacted Twitter and had it removed and I believe the account associated with it was then banned by Twitter.

4. There are a lot of economical things we will be contemplating and implementing in order to provide more built-in safeguards to prevent abuse and exploitation in the future. At this time though, I can't provide any specifics. I imagine at least one of these ideas will be mentioned/implemented later this week. We will have an announcement about it then.

5. I assume you are referring to the thing Faiona said. The player involved has been saying that they are going to go public with this disagreement the two had. Faiona was merely getting ahead of it by addressing it first. It really was nothing more than a minor disagreement in an off-site chat.

6. Didn't see anything to answer here.

7. We are looking at expanding the administrative staff on site and at the best way to go about that.

8. I don't recall if I had said sweeping bans or not. If I had, I do not mean it in the way I'm sure major companies like Riot Games or Blizzard would use it. To them, a sweeping ban is a script that auto finds people doing x thing that they don't want done and then 10,000 accounts get banned. That was not the case here. Every person banned was heavily investigated and manually reviewed by Faiona and I. There were not warnings (outside of the mass one we sent back in December to some of these individuals) in this specific instance. This only happens if we feel there is no possible path of redemption and that a red line has been crossed. Not every ban comes with a warning. Sometimes, there is no going back.

Link: https://www.sylestia.com/forums/?thread=105585&page=23#228 Author: Neytiri875 Time Posted: 3/25/2023 at 6:58 AM You do know ael only posted a few pieces of primordial cheaper for the mere fact she wanted some new people to be able to access it. This game isn't exactly new user friendly and a lot of the new people are frustrated that everything is locked behind lost grove

That is not at all why that player was banned. Again, as repeatedly stated, nobody was banned simply for selling something at a low price.